Dr. Shiva, Scott Adams, and “VAXXED II…”

By Kent Heckenlively, J.D.

I have a confession.  I’m a complete fanboy when it comes to really smart people.

That’s why I start every day listening to the Scott Adams podcast.  He says interesting things and occasionally interviews really smart people.

Recently he had on Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai, the inventor of email, four degrees from MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology), founder of several companies, and a candidate for the U.S. Senate from Massachusetts.

Dr. Shiva gave a master class to Scott Adams on vaccines and I was astonished.  I have never heard a more informed discussion by a major public figure.  To his credit, Adams asked all the right questions.  It was fascinating to watch Adams confront some of the glaring contradictions of the vaccine program in real time, rather than just brush them off.

I reached out to Dr. Shiva’s campaign for an interview and he generously agreed.

The first time we tried to speak Dr. Shiva was running late from another call, and we really didn’t get much of a chance to talk.  Despite several calls, we were not able to reschedule.  I figured it was a lost cause.

The next time I heard about Dr. Shiva, it was because there had been something of a dust-up with the VAXXED II team, when they asked him to remove a video of him speaking about the film in the AMC theater where the film had earlier been shown.  I’d heard varying accounts of what had happened, but genuinely did not know which details were correct.  (As an attorney I’d learned long ago to withhold a strong opinion until you can directly ask the people involved.)

Dr. Shiva objected strongly to the request, citing the need to avoid any type of censorship.

The dispute bothered me, as I was starting to have a growing respect for Dr. Shiva, and my interactions with the VAXXED II team over the years (although few) have been great, and I consider them fellow warriors.

Despite my unease over the developing situation, I was planning to leave it all alone until I got a call from cartoonist, Ben Garrison, with whom Dr. Shiva had been discussing the issue.  Ben asked if I would step in, and promote a discussion.  I told Ben I was happy to make another attempt at an interview, where we could talk about what I originally wanted to discuss, as well as the more recent issues.

I told Ben I always try to follow the Biblical dictum, “Blessed are the peace-makers,” although in my experience it normally means the poor guy gets crucified by both parties.  (Finally!  Something we agree on!  Let’s kill the guy who’s trying to solve our problems!  Peace is achieved!)

But, I guess I’m just kind of stupid that way.  So, I called Dr. Shiva again, got him on the phone, and he agreed to an interview.  We had some preliminary discussion about what we both wanted to accomplish in the interview, then began.

What came out of this interview was nothing short of AMAZING.  The information you will find here is a game-changer. The interview was long and full of interesting new points for the anti-vax community to chew on.

Here is our conversation (lightly edited for clarity.)

Kent:  First of all, how did you get interested in the vaccine issue?

Dr. Shiva:  The vaccine issue is not the vaccine issue.  The vaccine issue is about truth, freedom, and health.  There is no issue in my mind called the vaccine issue.  It’s an issue about truth, freedom and health.  This is an issue I’ve been a scientist in, an innovator in, and a fighter in since I was a kid, Kent.

When I bring that up it goes back to being a kid in India, an untouchable kid, where there’s a caste system, and people are told to shut the hell up, right?  And only a finite set of people can talk about anything.  And I grew up in Bombay, but I also grew up in a small village where my grandmother was a subsistence farmer.  But she was the village healer.  In all traditional systems of medicine, the local village always had a healer, and it was typically a woman.  A woman who had studied the plants, different types of modalities, and those healers had a whole art and a science.  I learned at a young age that medicine was both an art and an information science.

In that model, the traditional medicine systems of India, it was always personalized, and precise.  So, for an individual, my grandmother would figure out their particular homeostasis, their particular disturbances, then she would figure out how to bring them back to their homeostasis, using particular formulas, which included particular yoga moves, or particular massage, or herbs for that person.  And that’s what I saw her do as a young kid growing up int his village that had no running water or electricity.  And she did that for nothing, Kent.  Zero.  And I saw her empirically heal people.

In those systems of medicine, one of the key principles was resilient health.  Which meant your body should be able to take on certain stresses, and it should be able to come back, right?  It wasn’t so weak.  People worked hard, but they rested.  You were exposed to all sorts of potential pathogens that your body was able to interact with those pathogens, but get stronger.  But it was a concept of resilient health.

That was a very core concept that I always knew, and it was always in the atmosphere.  When I came to the United States and pursued my interest in medicine, and in this idea of why there was oppression in the world, because I experienced the caste system in India.  Both of those have always been a part of me, Kent, this pursuit for truth, freedom and human health.

One part of me created the first email system, started working at a medical school to understand why babies were dying in their sleep.  Applying biology and computing.  At the same time I learned how to create large systems.  This email system, which was done in a medical school.  It wasn’t created by the military, which is the biggest lie in the universe.  Email came from the health sciences institutions.  We’re not talking about text messaging.  We’re talking about email, the system as we know it today.

I learned how to build complex systems, I learned about health, and the core to all of this, when I came to MIT, was trying to understand the body as a system, Kent.  Things as systems.  When I came to MIT, two things occurred.  I wanted to understand why the caste system existed.  People may know this professor, Noam Chomsky.  Noam gave me a lot of stuff to read.  he wrote this book called Manufacturing Consent, which was sort of the book on fake news.

I learned from Noam how to do research, and I understood why the caste system existed, and how that was really a system of oppression for power, profit, and control.  That was one system I learned.

But I also learned from my years at MIT, that the entire medical system did not look at the body as a whole system.  It looked at it as parts.  So, if you got to a doctor, and you want to get a healthy, resilient system, that was not their intention.  Their intention was to figure out how much money they could make off you.  So, if you had a headache, you might get sent to five different specialists.  An endocrinologist, a psychiatrist, etc, right?  The body was seen as a system of parts, because Western medicine’s origin comes from war.

Western medicine’s entire origin, starting in the 1800s, with the Crimean War, and the mother of Western medicine was Florence Nightengale.  And the goal was to put a soldier back on the field.  In that sense, Western medicine did amazing things to put someone back on the battlefield, anti-biotics, steroids, surgery, right?  When I saw that and understood it, I really started pursuing engineering.  But in 2003, three degrees in engineering, but in 2003, Western medicine was recognizing that their entire approach to health was flawed.

And a new field in biology was created in 2003, called systems biology.  And systems biology said genes are not who we are.  That’s a reductionist concept.  We’re actually an interaction of many different subsystems.  And if we really want to understand health, we really have to start understanding these systems, these molecular systems.

I came back to MIT in 2003 and I took on this very, very big challenge, just as they thought email would be impossible to create, a technology which could mathematically model the human cell, which means all the molecular reactions.  After five years, for my Ph.D work, I created a new technology, Cyto-Solve.  And Cyto-Solve provided a de-centralized platform for us to integrate the findings in modern science, which are all in these little papers, right?  Integrate them together, to create a holistic understanding at a point in science, of anything.  The immune system, the neurological system, osteo-arthritis, any disease.  That was the very biggest breakthrough with Cyto-Solve.

After we did it, between 2007 and 2012 I had to write all the papers, because all your naysayers are out there.  But I ended up getting published in Nature Neuroscience, and Cell Biophysical Journal.  These are considered the elite of the elite of peer-reviewed publications.  Then, after that, I ended up getting some of the biggest pharmaceutical companies to use our technology.  Ones that knew that their approach was failing.

By the way, the pharmaceutical industry is in massive peril, I don’t know if you know this.  Year over year they spend 30% in new R & D [Research and Development] funding, and they’re finding fewer and fewer new drugs.  They themselves know it.

Some of the leaders in that field, the innovative aspects of Big Pharma, said we need to figure out better ways to do this.  So, I get hired, and played with Big Pharma.  In addition, many people in the nutraceutical field, the supplements, the herbs, started using our technology.  Because they recognized what’s also happened in the nutraceutical field is equally like pharma, there’s a lot of snake oil out there.  Any Tom, Dick and Harry can put A plus B together and start selling it on Whole Foods.

But we do know, there are combinations of natural products which can have immense effects.  So, what Cyto-Solve really is, is a platform for truth, freedom, and health.  We can identify the truth, what works, and we can integrate subsystems.  We’re actually finding very powerful correlations that do work.  And we’re able to find out what doesn’t work, using modern science in a systems-based approach.

What I’m trying to say is my entire journey, from that six-year-old kid, has been to understand two things; why there’s a hierarchical caste system which oppresses people, growing up as an untouchable in India?  And why is it that woman with tattoos all over her arms, my grandmother, who didn’t have any training, was able to heal people?  That has led me to this point, so when you ask about the vaccine issue, the vaccine issue is not a vaccine issue.  It’s about the struggle for truth, freedom, and health.

When I was asked to participate in the “vaccine” issue, it was about a year and a half ago.  People have known all the work I’ve done, all my science.  Someone down in Florida, who follows me on Twitter, said you should come and speak at one of the events some of the people were speaking at, including people like Andrew Wakefield, etc.

Kent:  Was that Kristin Comella?

Dr. Shiva:  No, this was Jenny Smith who invited me.  There’s a bunch of groups down there, all infighting amongst each other.  I went down there and I said, ‘I’m a scientist and I have not studied all the details of all the vaccines.  But I can tell you, that from an engineering systems perspective, when you have a lot of customers complaining, through these mothers, to ignore it doesn’t make sense.”

And also, that the body is quite a resilient system, and the approach of bypassing the innate immune system, didn’t make sense.  That was about a year and a half ago, Kent.

What was interesting was for my Ph.D. work, my Ph.D work, at least a third of it, I created a new technology for understanding molecular systems and modeling them, but in order to get my Ph.D., I don‘t know if you know this, but you can’t get your Ph.D. unless you present your Ph.D. to the entire faculty.  Any one can critique you.  It’s open forum.  Any one can attack you.  And anyone can say, I don’t think this guy should get his Ph.D. from MIT.

In order the get a Ph.D. from MIT, first you have to pass four exams, it’s called the written and oral exams.  Fifty percent of the people who go through that don’t even make it through that.  Then you have to do a thesis, and your thesis has to be something that is absolutely new, not done in the field, and it has the be validated.

In my case, I had to go through my exams.  When I did my Ph.D., when I created this new technology I had to show I could apply it to a new problem.  Well, guess what I applied it to?  The interferon system.  The interferon system is the missing link between the innate and adaptive immune systems.

So, if you want to talk about the heart of the heart of the immune system, it’s the interferon subsystem.  That was in 2003-2007.  It’s been a long journey for me.  When I looked at this approach that people are looking at, the pro-vax and the anti-vax discussion, I saw flaws on both sides.  And I told this to Andy.  I said, “Andy, the problem with your movement is there’s no science.”

In fact, the way they were attacking the pro-vaxxers was in a reductionist way.  Aluminum, mercury, okay?  They were single-threading it, and that’s why I think they failed, frankly.  They have applied the same approach, Kent, that their enemies apply to them.  So, broadly looking at it, if you step back, and I look back at trying to understand the caste system, which is a political system, or medical systems, what you find is there’s some core principles here.

First of all, there’s a general area called systems thinking.  Separate from my work of Cyto-Solve, there’s been other stuff.  In 2007 I created a course offering at MIT called “Systems Health.”  I built that after I came from my Fulbright in India, where I’d unraveled what the traditional systems of Indian medicine were.  They weren’t really a system of medicine, Kent, they were an engineering system.  And that engineering system matches one to one with modern engineering systems theory.

To put in a simple way, your body is a system, my body is a system, an airplane is a system, a computer is a system.  Everything in the world is a system.  Your dog is a system.  The climate is a system.  These systems all follow nine principles, which I’ve talked about.  I’ve been able to convert those principles, so you don’t have to a four-year-engineering degree at MIT.  I can teach this to people in less than an hour.  That’s what systems health does.  It teaches people the fundamentals of all systems.

From those fundamentals, people are able to become leaders, not followers, and apply those principles to understand any system.  On December 2 of this year, which is my birthday, as a gift I’m going to be offering that workshop to people, whoever wants to attend.  We’ve been doing this now for ten years.  People come to Cambridge, we use to offer it at major centers, we used to charge thousands of dollars.  We’re going to do it at a much more nominal rate because we want to create leaders.  And it’s called the systems revolutionary leadership program.

Because I believe if people understand how systems work, they won’t get duped.  One of the things that comes out of systems thinking is you always have to have a goal.  Intelligent systems have a goal, and you iterate to achieve that goal.  So, what is the goal in this movement for truth, freedom, and health?  Well, one goal could be power, profit and control.  The other goal could be truth, freedom, and health.

From a systems approach, what are the principals of getting there?  Well, those in power, use a set of principals which go like this.  First, it’s exclusive, a small set of people sit in back rooms.  I call it the principal of exclusivity.

The next principal is opacity.  Which means everything is dark and kept secret.

The third principal is reductionism.  They take a very complex problem and they reduce it to one singular thing.  One singular part, or one singular approach.  For example, if you look at climate, a very complex system, you’re look at CO2.  Then you pound away at everybody that CO2 is a problem.

Or with the immune system, that the measure of success of your body’s health is what antibodies.  Okay?  Which is false.  So, the concept is reductionism, or in the case of how do you fight a movement, we’ve got to get this movie out called VAXXED.  That’s the only way.  Shut down anything else.  That’s the way.

The fourth thing is centralization, which means you use your buddies, it’s all centralized distribution of content.  Centralized distribution of anything, Big Pharma, Big Media.  So, you rely on Fox News or CNN, or AMC Theaters.  You see what I’m saying?

Kent:   Yes.

Dr. Shiva:  The next one is depersonalization.  You treat people like a blob, not like unique people.  Kent, Did I cover all six there?

Kent: (Laughs.)

Dr. Shiva:  I think the first one was exclusivity, second one was opacity, third was reductionism, fourth was centralization, fifth one was depersonalization.  Hold on, Kent, I forget the other one, but it’s an important one.  Do you have one second?

Kent:  Yeah.

Dr. Shiva:  I just enumerated this.  I’ve been up since four this morning.  So, I’ll come back to the other one.  (Calls out to a member of his staff.)  Jen, do you remember it, there?  I have it in my little presentation I just did, Kent.

Kent:  Okay, we’ll find out how awake your staff is.

Dr. Shiva:  Okay, here it is.  The other one if censorship, okay?  Let me repeat.  One is exclusivity, two is opacity, right, keep everything secret.  Third is reductionism.  Fourth is centralization.  Fifth is censorship.  And the sixth is really this notion of depersonalization, which really means you don’t look at a person as a unique being, like my grandmother would.  You treat everybody as one big blob.

Let’s apply these principles to the discussion of the immune system.  First, of all, it’s exclusive.  A few guys, five guys in the world are the leading experts in the immune system, right?  Or a couple of institutions.  It’s very, very opaque, because nobody has the opportunity, you can’t even get these papers downloaded.  You need two hundred bucks to download them.  The entire model of science is kept opaque.

Next, it’s highly, highly reductionist, as I mentioned.  You take a very complicated system, like the immune system, and you reduce it to one variable, antibodies.  In fact, a paper just came out on November 9, a few days after we did our International Vaccine Conference.  I don’t know if you know, Kent, but I looked at this and said, there’s not even any risk assessment here.

Kent:  Right.

Dr. Shiva:   There’s not even a one size fits all.  We called an international conference on Vaccine Risk Assessment.  Six hundred and fifty people signed up.  About a hundred people showed up physically, about four hundred people on-line.  It was quite extraordinary and we have two working group papers which are coming out of it.  That’s what the NIH [National Institutes of Health] should be doing, Kent.  That’s what these people in the vaccine movement should have done.

And I’m critiquing them, and I’ll get to that, but anyway from the immune system, the next thing you have is the notion of censorship.  The current medical establishment censors everyone.  You put up stuff on YouTube, I don’t know if you know, YouTube is getting ready to do a major removal of content that quote “doesn’t produce commercial value to them.”  That’s going to get rid of a lot of content.

The next thing is all of this is depersonalized.  You’re treating people, it’s not a one-sized fits all model.  Every child is treated the same.  Every individual is treated the same, when we know every person has unique genetics, unique backgrounds, and unique epigenetics.

Kent:  Yes.

Dr. Shiva:  And the other piece of this is the discussion is not transparent.  It’s kept very secretive.  So, how do we get ourselves out of that?  So, number one, we cannot make it exclusive.  We have to make this discussion open.  Open and we have to be very inclusive.  So, when we ran our vaccine conference, Kent, we invited everyone.  If you look on Twitter, I sent very gracious messages to this guy, Peter Hoetz.  Everyone.  I invited everyone to come.  We didn’t want to make it a backroom discussion.  And we made it accessible on-line and we’re going to publish everything on-line.

That’s open science, what we call citizen science.  It’s the opposite of exclusivity.

Kent:  What was the response from Peter Hoetez and others like him?

Dr. Shiva:  He didn’t know what to say.  Go look at his Twitter stuff.  He doesn’t understand, because MDs and pediatricians are basically tech support people.  They know nothing about the risk assessment of the immune system.  So, we checkmated him because he didn’t want to come, and he doesn’t even understand the term, ‘engineering risk-assessment.’

It’s out of his field.  So, what we showed are pediatricians and MDs are like pilots flying a plane.  They’re unqualified to talk about risk.  They are the deliverers of the product. They don’t understand.  At MIT in 2003 they created the department of biological engineering, not bio-medical.  Because they wanted to make biology an engineering application.  It’s like chemistry became an engineering application with chemical engineering.

When you do biological engineering, a vaccine is a long product of an engineering process.  And guess what?  There’s no risk assessment in vaccine development.  There is for pharma.  In fact, there’s a standard.  There is for bio-medical devices, but none for vaccines.  So, that’s what we pointed out.  In that model, all of these MDs and pediatricians, they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.  They’re not qualified to speak about risk.

When you take an engineering systems approach, you expose that.

We were transparent, we were open, and the third thing we did is we took a systems approach.  Part of our conference is we’re going to take every paper ever written on vaccines, and we’re going to create the first taxonomy, and it’s not been done.  Now, I’ve done this in other fields, in neuroscience we published a paper in Nature Neuroscience.  We have a paper coming out in Nature Medicine that we’ve done on osteo-arthritis.

This is cutting-edge scientific work we’re doing, with major institutions.  That model we’re going to do with vaccines.  Then, from a systems approach, we had one of the leading systems people in the world, a former professor at MIT who holds two professorships at MIT.  She and I led the session on engineering risk assessment.

Kent:  Was that Stephanie Seneff?

Dr. Shiva:  Stephane Seneff, in many ways, is hurting this movement.  She is not an engineering person.  She is drawing stupid curves, with autism, next to something else, correlation does not mean causation.  She is doing in many ways, unfortunately bad science.  You can’t draw a curve with autism rates going up and another curve with glyphosate going up.  You could also draw the same curve with organic food.

Correlation does not equal causation.  Mechanisms are what you need to drive.  When I did the GMO thing, her and another guy, Anthony Samsell, did the same thing there.   And we wondered what they were really about, because it’s so nonsensical science, that it’s easy for the opposition to attack it.

Kent:  Okay.

Dr. Shiva:  I’m talking about Debbie Nightengale, who used to be a professor of engineering systems, and a professor of aeronautical engineering.  The linguists and the scientists bullshit.  You cannot bullshit engineering.  Scientists get data and they draw a curve.  Then they fit a line to a curve.  Engineers actually have to make an airplane run.  And if an airplane falls out of the sky, you can’t bullshit your way out of.  This is a fundamental difference between science and engineering.

You have to take a systems approach.  That’s what engineers do.  Third, is this has to be de-centralized.  So, when we’re doing this, we’re getting people all over the world to contribute to this, not one person, not one paper.  You look at everything holistically.

Next, you can’t have any censorship in this.  You listen, you invite everyone, you don’t censor anybody.  The other thing is this has to be personalized.  Meaning, one size doesn’t fit all.  So, what I want to do, is just track you is that there are these core six principals, Kent, and that’s what we’re applying to the immune system understanding.

Kent:  All right.

Dr. Shiva:  Now, let’s apply that to political movements.  If you want to fight for truth, freedom, and health, against power, profit, and control, you cannot use the methods of the enemy.  From an ethical argument, winning by using the methods of the enemy is going to lead to losing.  This is something people don’t want to embrace because what’s happened in many political movements is that many people justify unethical behavior.

I would say this is one of the most important things here.  First of all, in this “vaccine” movement, you can’t have the same set of people doing it.  I’ve done a movie with Bobby Kennedy.  Nice guy.  I don’t know Del Bigtree, but everything I’ve seen, he wants to be a Hollywood wannabe.  He was from The Doctors and now he’s doing vaccines.  He’s raised money for this, and it’s about doing these shows with well-lit, blah, blah, blah.

He’s a closed system.  It’s the same old people.  And you can’t question them.  Second thing, it’s very opaque.  No one really knows what their strategy is.  It’s not open forum.  We, as a community should be discussing what the stategy is.  Do you follow what I’m saying?

Kent:  Yes.

Dr. Shiva:  We’re doing the exact same thing they’re doing.  Third, it has to take a systems approach.  Systems approach means you have to look at the thing and realize, yeah, sometimes we may need to do a movie.  And sometimes we may need to do legislation.  And we may need to build a massive movement.  And we may need to do education.  Okay?  But in my view, ultimately, education, education, education.

My great grandfather was an indentured servant, I remember him well.  He went on a slave ship to Burma and came back, he had very little money, but whatever money he had, Kent, he would give for education.  That’s how my grandparents made it out of the Indian caste system.  Education was ultimately liberation.  So, you have to educate people.

Next, is what you saw is, you can never justify censorship.  I was supposed to do a Q & A session.  It wasn’t about me.  I changed all my plans to go and do that Q & A system in Boston.  AMC theaters shut it down.  So, in the lobby, which is an open lobby, even AMC didn’t stop me.  We gave a talk, which you probably heard, to educate you in workshops, so we can make leaders out of people, not followers.  That video went viral.  I don’t know if you saw it.

Kent:  I did not.

Dr. Shiva:  You should go look at it.  It’s right on my feed.  The video, people were coming from this gut-wrenching movie, and the Q & A session, I guess was shut down.  So, when people were coming out into the lobby, everybody wanted to know what I had to say.  And you need to go listen to that.  That video, mothers put up everywhere.  When that video goes up, I get an email from a woman named Bella Tommey, saying I should delete it.

Kent:  Let’s talk first about your reaction to the movie.  With your systems thinking, and you’re seeing multiple problems coming up with these kids, when they’re young and in their teenage years.

Dr. Shiva:  Let me just finish this piece before.  Do you understand that this video after the movie, which was a Q & A people were supposed to do, encouraging people to get educated, that I was going to teach a workshop on the immune system that everyone was invited to come on December 2?  I had good friend of mine who is a big bodybuilder and he comes out and he goes Shiva, “I feel so depressed and awful after seeing that movie.”

So, the talk I gave was you cannot feel depressed.  You need to fight.  Because that movie does not give a way forward.  It’s done in typical Hollywood style, which is to dramatize things and make people feel real bad.  Jen, who was on the phone call, she had already seen clips of that movie, it was out on YouTube.

What was the purpose of doing it at AMC?  It was to have a forum, so we could discuss this as a community.  You shut down the forum, which they didn’t do, AMC did.  And then people are coming out gut-wrenched.

Noam Chomsky, I like him on certain things, Noam Chomsky in the 80s and 90s would give seminars.  And people would leave his seminars saying “Oh, my God, it’s futile!  We can’t fight this big system, okay?”  That’s f****** up.  Because what you’re doing is disempowering people.  People need to be empowered to know the way forward.  So, what I’m saying is that movie, the censorship, the fact that they didn’t want me speaking, why, because I was the outside guy?  We didn’t do it with nice lighting?  I’m the brown-skinned Indian guy who cannot talk?  That’s the way I felt, Kent.

Kent: Let me back you up a bit.  One of the things I’ve really taken away from Scott Adams is this idea of “mind-reading” and I find it in my own life.  I find that if I have a disagreement with my lovely wife of 25 years I usually find that I’ve misinterpreted something she’s said, and I’m “mind-reading” what she said.  My understanding of the situation, and you may understand it differently, is that nobody didn’t want you to talk, they simply didn’t want you to do it in the theater.  As I understand it, because AMC put that condition on them, now as I understand it they’re simply going to their cars in the parking lot and they’re doing it when they’re going home.  Do you understand that people want you to say exactly what you said, but in a location that is not the theater?

Dr. Shiva:  No, no, no, Kent, this is where you need, I hate to say that.  You are now saying stuff that is part of the model.  That is not what happened.

Kent:  And that’s why I’m asking because I don’t know.

Dr. Shiva:  You’re “mind-reading” now.  And you’re drinking the Kool-Aid.  Let me tell you what really happened.

Kent:  Okay.

Dr. Shiva:  In Massachusetts, there are a bunch, a core set of people who are following the enemy’s model, they keep everything opaque.  There are a lot of activists and mothers who are so angry they want to get on the streets and protest.  Got it?

Kent:  All right.

Dr. Shiva:  Four or five people are telling them, “No! No! No!  Don’t do that!  We just need to stop this bill.”  This is what the not-so-obvious establishment does.  Tells their own people to shut the hell up and follow us.  Got it?  Shut the hell and this movie is the only way out.  Follow me?  In Massachusetts, people in New Hampshire, mothers who are angry at the way the four or five people are treating them, invited me to come and speak in New Hampshire.  When people in Massachusetts found I was going to speak there, they said, no, no, no, come speak in Boston.  Because the people in New Hampshire were a little more radical.

They didn’t want me going over there.  So, I said, sure, I’ll speak in my home state.  So, I was supposed to speak in Burlington and Boston, but because I couldn’t go to both places, one guy was going to go to Burlington, and the other guy in Boston.  This was forty-eight hours before this was going to take place.

The day before, an email was sent, which I didn’t know about, saying that no one was allowed to speak in any AMC theater.  Got it?

Kent: Yes.

Dr. Shiva:  The day before.  My assistant, Jen, was on the phone, so we were going to make a CD and have a friend of mine speaking in Burlington, and I was going to go to Boston.  The woman who was heading this up, every local organization, was setting up the AMC theater event.  You know that, right?

Kent:  I do not know that.  I’m in California.

Dr. Shiva:  Oh, that’s what happened.  The local organization, HCMA, was negotiating with AMC theaters.  The head of that organization, she said, “Shiva, that’s nonsense.  Burlington, we may be able to show the CD, but you still go to Boston.”  It turns out there’s a group called GATHR.  Do you know them?

Kent:  Yes.

Dr. Shiva:  GATHR gets two or three bucks for every movie, so it’s kind of like a commission model.  When GATHR was notified about this they told the woman, “That’s not true.  Each organization can negotiate with the local AMC.”  So, I’m going up to Burlington, dropping off a CD, driving back down to Boston.  I have two major science publications I need to get out.  I stop that, and literally minutes before we get to Boston, the woman says we couldn’t negotiate with the manager, he said yes, and now he’s saying no.  I’m walking into the lobby as people are coming out.

By the way, I’ve been to that theater before, nobody stopped us.  No one!  So, you need to get this clear.  That video is me speaking and people getting inspired and educated.  That’s why you need to go listen to it.  As well as ten or twenty other moms put up.  And the emails were, “I’m finally inspired.  This movement has always made us feel like shit.”

It’s like when I came to the United States and they showed these big fat babies with their stomaches bloated and some white woman saying we’re going to go help these darkies in India or Africa, okay?  Susan Komen has done this with the breast cancer foundation.  How many years has breast cancer been taking place?  Have you seen a solution?

Kent:  No, I haven’t.

Dr. Shiva: How many millions have those people made who run those breast cancer foundations?

Kent:  I understand that.

Dr. Shiva:  That’s so, new people come in, you should go and look at the videos.  It’s bad lighting, but people were inspired because we said we need to educate you.  I will host an educational workshop and we’re going to give you tools so you can train people, learn, teach, and serve.  That’s what that video said.

And by the way, no one at AMC stopped me.  That video gets put on line, within 24 hours my assistant gets an email from some 25 year-old-girl, Bella Tommey, telling me I should take down that video.  All censorship sucks, but you should take down that video.

This is what I call the “not-so-obvious establishment.”  Maybe they’re just stupid, or naive, or inexperienced, but that is bullshit.  You can never justify censorship.  AMC never sent me an email.  They did.  Why?  Because of box-office numbers.  Think about it.  This is the model of the establishment.  We’ve got to hit box-office numbers.

So, you really need to think this through.  All of these movements have this sense of urgency, “No, don’t do that!”  Well, the mothers who had these videos up, they were being hit with emails, from top down.  One of them said, “No f****** way.”  Because if you’re doing censorship, that’s wrong.  Why did we even get into this situation, Kent?  Because scientists were censored from telling the truth.  Others were censored.

Kent: Absolutely.

Dr. Shiva:  This is what I’m trying to say.  You cannot build movements on the same thing.  It’s like The Who song, “the parting of the left is nothing but the parting of the right.”  This is something, that liberals never quite understand.  They want to do something good, but then they apply the same principals.  Movements don’t have an “I” in them.  Movements have to be built where a thousand flowers bloom.

The same thing occurred in India.  The same thing occurred in the Civil Rights Movement.  The same thing occurred in the Anti-War movement.  Until people busted free of those few people who think they own the movement.  That’s why they failed in California and New York.  They failed.  I’m sorry.  They tried to throw me under the bus.  But I’m not a good Indian.  I’m sorry.  Those mothers said f*** you to that.  Then I got a call, leaving two messages, from Polly, they realized we caught them with their hand in the cookie jar.  She may be a nice person, but you can’t support censorship of any part.  Not one inch, man.

Kent:  It’s interesting, I was actually testify in California because I’m an attorney and I’ve written books, and some person I don’t know told me my testimony wasn’t needed.  I understand your frustration at being marginalized.

Dr. Shiva:  I’m not frustrated.  I have been a fighter all my life.  My fight has been for people who don’t have a voice.  I want to educate.  We don’t need followers, we need leaders.  We’re going to start doing workshops every week, on-line, and we’re going to teach them how they can teach others.  This concept of one person doing botox, getting all primed up, and you should talk to Ben Garrison about what Del Bigtree did to, had him come on his show, and for two hours kept him waiting.  That’s bullshit.

We’re not going to bow down to any f******* sacred cows.  When you just justified, that thinking, don’t take it personally, that kind of thinking, Kent, will destroy movements.  And that’s why it’s failing.

Kent:  I’m just asking the question that would normally be asked.

Dr. Shiva:  I know, but it’s very easy.  This is a very delicate, and deliciously easy way to get manipulated.  I was in Hollywood for three years.  I’ve been there.  I’ve seen the narcissism there.  You have wannabee Hollywood people.

Kent:  Let me ask you a couple questions.

Dr. Shiva:  And by the way, I’m not here to convince you, either.  What I’m trying to say, and the last point, is it has to be personalized.  Movements cannot be one blob of people.  It has to be let a thousand flowers bloom.  If people want to protest, great.  If people want to hold up signs, great.  But in Massachusetts people are trying to do backroom deals with legislators, it’s going to blow up in their f****** faces.  Maybe they stop it for five months, but it’s going to come.  I’ve seen this in every f****** movement, Kent.  A few people telling people, this has to happen, this has to be done.  If that video goes up, it’s going to hurt the movie sales.  As if the movie is the revolution.

Kent:  Let me ask you this.  Let’s put this in your systems biology approach.  This is kind of where I’m coming from.  The process of making a vaccine requires the viruses to be grown in animal tissues, which are then reinjected into human beings.  And what we know from plagues of the past is they’ve usually been a combination of people living in unhygenic conditions and viruses jumping from animals to humans.  The doctor I work with, Dr. Judy Mikovits, she really believes that this an enormous problem is because what we’re doing is injecting animal tissue with viruses that may be silent in the animals, but when they go into human beings, they wake up, especially retroviruses, and may be massive immune system disturbances, leading to cancer, autism in the young, and maybe a whole host of other diseases.  In your systems biology approach, have you looked at the question of the danger of using animal tissue might be?

Dr. Shiva:  Again, we’re doing a reductionist approach, here.  Okay?  Yes, she may have found one little indication.  The bigger picture is this, there’s a paper I’m about to publish, and present, and I can’t talk a lot about it.  But it’s going to be a modern theory of the immune system.  We have to take a systems approach here.  The immune system model we have today, goes back to maybe 1950.  Go online and you’ll see, what is the immune system?  You’ll see two boxes.  The innate immune system, the non-specific, and then the specific.  And what do we do with a vaccine, we go to the specific with the antibodies, and that’s it.

If you look at the current work that’s been done as of 2019, there are probably six other boxes than just those two.  And that’s what I’m going to be talking people about and training them on.  You have to take a systems approach, because then people are just like, autism, autism, autism.  It’s a buzzword.  Just like mercury, mercury, mercury.  Or aluminum, aluminum, aluminum.

This is not the way to do science, I’m sorry.  First, we have to look at it as an interconnected system.  Second, we have to recognize what is the goal of our body?  It’s to be resilient.  Third, it’s highly personalized.  And medical interventions have a whole suite of interventions.  We have vaccines. We have drugs.  We have food.  We have turmeric.  We have supplements.  All this stuff.  What you may need to do for you is very different than what I need to do.

If you had child where you grew up in a bubble where you kept him in a restricted bubble and you didn’t give him any exposure to dirt or anything, in total sanitary conditions, he may need titered vaccines to even get him to be able to go out.  Do you see what I’m saying?

What I’m saying is you have to take a systems approach, and the reason this discourse is important, is that the biggest thing we’ve brought into this, and that’s why people have enjoyed and are grateful, is we need to do risk assessment and personalized medicine.  One size does not fit all.  And therefore, you have to allow choice.  Period.

Kent:  I think we’re saying some of the same things.  We’re talking about risk assessment and it seems like you clearly state that no risk/benefit assessment is done on vaccines.

Dr. Shiva:  What I’m saying is, there’s two aspects of risk assessment in vaccines.  First, of all, it’s the product of an engineering systems process.  Just like building a car.  There could be various manufacturers that could be involved, or suppliers giving different components, different adjuvants, this that, right?  They go through testing, they go through a process where they’re delivered, how they’re put together.  It’s a whole manufacturing process.

In the pharmaceutical manufacturing process it has very clear ISO standards.  I think it’s ICHQ 10.  I forget what it is.  In biomedical devices there’s a process.  I’ve been on engineering standards committees.  These are documents that you make and everybody follows, etc.

Vaccines are left out of that concept.  Okay, that’s one type of risk assessment.  The other types is after the product is created, you do testing.  Double-blind, saline placebo testing.  There’s one [system] to build a car, and then you do crash testing with it.  Then you do all sorts of safety testing with it.  In this case there’s not the engineering systems process methodology for risks that are in pharma as well as bio-medical devices.  Nowhere near.

Then the testing protocols are non-existent.  There’s two issues here.  And that’s what we believe needs to be highlights.

In the third part of this is one size does not fit all.

Kent:  You’ve described a system that doesn’t have appropriate checks and balances, to fall back on my legal background.

Dr. Shiva:  And the other thing is there’s no liability placed on the manufacturer.  If Boeing’s planes fall out of the sky, I can sue Boeing.  Here, I can’t even sue the original manufacturer and my liability is limited because of the 1986 vaccine court issue.

You have a failure of an entire system, because the customer on the end, really has no voice.

Kent:  Let me ask you this.  Granted that we both agree that this system is failing, how much of a problem do you think this has caused to the health of the American population?

Dr. Shiva:  I don’t know what you mean by how much.  It’s hard to quantify that, right?  We have signals.  I can tell you from an engineering approach.

Kent:  There’s something like 330 million people in the United States, and we have a system in which every single kid has to get a certain suite of vaccines.  Can we have any estimate on how much damage that failing system is causing?

Dr. Shiva:  What would happen is if you create a risk matrix, and this is what I talk about at the seminar.  We don’t even have the risk matrices to assess that?  That’s what should have been done.  It’s like this, if I release product to the public, right, and someone, an engineering product, a piece of software or a car, if one person complains and calls a call center, I have this in one of my companies.  I put a piece of software out, one customer calls, I don’t say, “Well, everybody else is fine.  You’re the only person that’s having this problem, F-U and I hang up.  I don’t do that, right?

Because if that one person calls, what do my call centers or engineering centers do?  They say, what browser are you using, what system.  They may not be able to reproduce it, but they find all the details because we know you’re a real human being.  We know you’re a unique person, you’re working on a unique condition, we try to find everything and we try to replicate it.

When we do that, we understand a flaw in our system.  Do you follow?

Kent:  Absolutely.

Dr. Shiva: In the medical system they don’t do that.  Why?  Because this a very deeply philosophical issue, that in engineering we know the parts we’re putting together.  We know the ankle bone is connected to the foot bone.  In human biology we don’t know all the parts.  We don’t know all the interconnections, yet.

But in systems biology we’re attempting to re-engineer the body so we have an appreciation for it.  The medical doctor or pediatrician doesn’t know shit about any of this.  So, they’re trained to have a hubris.  They are trained to cover up their ignorance with arrogance.

So, when somebody complains, like a mother, their immediate thing is it works, because they’re basically tech support people delivering a product.  In fact, they’re bad tech support guys.  This is where the problem starts.  So, when you ask, can you quantify it, we can’t because we don’t even have access to the data.  It’s like so many people called Boeing and said your planes are falling out of the sky and Boeing just ignored all that data.

The point is we should be able to come up with those numbers, those numbers do exist, and that’s why one of the first things that should be demanded is that this data be open-sourced, and be accessible to the public.

Kent:  My belief is that massive damage is taking place to America’s children as a result of this, I understand what you’re saying, but that’s my opinion.

Dr. Shiva:  But if you just go on belief, right, we just do rhetoric, that’s not going to get us to the end state.  People need to say there are a set of people complaining, now let’s demand that science occur.  Well, in order for science to occur, it goes back, it needs number one to be transparent.  Number two, it needs to be inclusive.  Number three, it needs to take systems approach.  Number four, it needs to be transparent, not opaque, do you hear what I’m saying?

Kent:  A hundred percent.

Dr. Shiva:  Otherwise, it’s going to be he said/she said.  These movements are going to fail, man.

Kent:  But here’s the other problem I have.  Are you familiar with Dr. Andrew Zimmerman?

Dr. Shiva:  People have sent me stuff.

Kent:  This is the problem.  In 2003-2004, the vaccine court was handling the Autism Omnibus Hearing.  Dr. Zimmerman is from Kennedy-Krieger Institute (Johns Hopkins University), he’s one of the top specialists in the world about autism and immune function.  He was the government’s own witness, and he was getting ready testify that he thought at least a third of the autism cases were because the vaccines stimulated the immune system, depleting the mitochondria.  He was ready to testify about that.  There were about a million kids with autism at that time.

So what that meant was at least 300,000 kids, the government’s own witness was getting ready to testify that at least a third of the autism cases were because the vaccines had exceeded their metabolic reserves.  Doing a little bit of simple math, 300,000 kids versus the lifetime expected cost of caring for a child with autism at $3 million dollars, so 300,000 times 3 million is basically 9 trillion dollars (author’s note – I was wrong by a decimal point.  It should be 900 billion dollars.)

That’s the type of liability the government is looking at.  And that’s why he was put away (discharged from case).  I agree with every single thing you’re saying, but I don’t know if you’re properly assessing evil is there and people wanting to protect their money.

Dr. Shiva:  This is beyond that.  I’ve known this since I was a kid.  I’ve suffered evil.  That’s not what the issue is.  The issue is, we already know all this.  You’re not telling me anything new, Kent.

How do we fight and win?

Kent:  I want that as well for my kid.

Dr. Shiva:  So, we already know it’s nine trillion or a hundred trillion.  We know those in power f*** over people all the time.  We know there were 60 million Indians here and they were decimated.  If you just keep talking about how horrible it is, where does that get the human being?

What is the way forward?  What do these movies make people feel?  It makes people feel helpless.  Nine trillion dollars liability.  We can’t do shit.  I’m talking about what is to be done.

Kent:  That’s great.

Dr. Shiva:  I’m telling you I want to offer is what my great grandfather told me.  Three things.  You know what they were?  Education, education, education.  On December 2, we’re going to educate people so I want a mother to go to a Harvard Medical School lecture and completely expose a scientist.  That’s the tools I’m going to give.

And if a hundred thousand mothers can do that, that’s how we win.  We’re not going to win by talking about how f***** s*** is.  We haven’t won.  We know the conditions of black people are horrible.  Civil rights didn’t do shit because Malcolm X was ousted, Martin Luther King was put in, and what they got was he was a not so obvious establishment.  Just like Gandhi was in India.  That’s what I’m trying to tell you.

What I’m trying to get across is a perspective of somebody that comes from an untouchable Indian, not a Kennedy who came with a silver spoon in his mouth.  I’m one of these people, and rarely have people like me every had a voice.  That’s why they wanted to censor me.  That’s why Bella Tommey has the gall to write me, who’s gone through hell, to tell me to take down a video.

And you even try to defend that.  We need to change the dynamics here.  Because in India there were every day, ordinary people like me, and you fighting against the British, and they wanted a revolution, and they parachuted in Gandhi and made him a god and everybody bowed down to him.  For 70 years, India went from white men with crowns to brown men with white hats, okay?  The suffering continued for 70 years.

That’s what occurred with the Civil Rights movement.  Martin Luther King was parachuted in.  And what did they do?  They never solved the real problems of the inner city.  They didn’t build infrastructure.  They gave something called affirmative action.  And that is what’s happening with these f****** movements.  And I see it because I come from the oppressed.  This is not theoretical to me.

That’s why they wanted that video down.  Because if you listen to what I say, that’s coming from an authentic fighter, not someone is a wannabee fighter.

Kent:  Besides your own movement-

Dr. Shiva:  It’s not my movement, Kent.  Before you’d publish, I’d like to see what you say, so I’m not quoted mistakenly, wrongly.  Because this is not my movement.  This a movement to educate millions of people about science.  How many people of all these women, even know what the immune system is.  After all these seventeen years they’ve been fighting, where’s the f****** education?  Where is a hundred thousand people fighting?  It’s the same old people, Kent.

Kent:  Can you point to examples of movements in history that have not been compromised?

Dr. Shiva:  Now you’re asking a good question, okay?  We understand there’s the establishment, those people who want to keep things, and then there are the ordinary, everyday people who start organizing on their own and bubbling up in their own imperfect ways, okay.  I say that without bo-tox, without PR, without lighting, without everything perfect.

Then there’s the not-so-obvious establishment.  People who may be naive, I want to depersonalize that to some extent.  They are who they are.  Let’s look at the women’s rights movement.  Susan B. Anthony goes to the democrats, Kent, what do they do?  They laugh at her.  What does she do?  She goes to the streets and builds a referendum.  That’s an example.  If you look at historically, the anti-war movement, you can see how they were being misled and how they broke with that.

If you look up until 1968, there was this set of people, these students, who said we don’t want to go and fight in Vietnam.  And there was the SDS, Students for a Democratic Society.  They basically contained the movement, people like Abbie Hoffman.  But Abbie Hoffman, after 1968, I believe after the bombing of Cambodia, Lyndon Johnson had machine guns on the stage of the convention, right?  People said, f*** this.  F*** the democrats and the republicans.

In fact, screw SDS, and they broke from both parties.  In fact, the left wing of the democratic party.  And that’s when the movement took off.  When people break from these “institutionalized agents of change.”  And the only way to do that, and the reason that occurred was because people actually saw that bombing take place and there were pictures.  That was education.  People need to be educated.

So, it’s not Shiva Ayyadurai, the MIT Ph.D.  I happen to have that and I’m going to use it because it’s saying f*** you to the establishment because I’m here.  But my goal is to train a hundred thousand other Ph.D.s in real time.  And that’s revolutionary.  It’s not saying, oh no, my VAXXED movie didn’t hit its numbers, we have to take down this guy’s video.  Do you understand the difference?

That model is going to go nowhere, and it has gone nowhere.  Look at the results.  Look at their f****** results.  They produce a movie, I’m not saying don’t go watch the movie, but people are coming out of that movie f***** up.  We need to inspire people with wins.

And the way you win is making it so a mother can feel she can go challenge a Harvard medical school doctor.  That’s what needs to be done.  And I have those tools.  And those tools involve not just me educating, but once you learn it, Kent, I have a dual pedagogy method, and you can teach it to others.  From the instant you leave.

It is an innovative model.  It’s different than from the top down movement of five people, we host the events, blah, blah, blah.  It’s old shit, it’s never going to go anywhere.

I’m passionate about this because I have seen what has worked.  I don’t know if you’ve seen it in Indian villages, but do you know who runs them?  It’s all women.  It’s all small head councils and they all solve their own problems.  We need to go back to believing in people.  It can’t be one person or two people, three people, and you can’t ever support censorship.  For any condition.

These are to me the red flags, because if we do that or say that, we’re going to hurt the movement.  How many times have you heard that?

Kent:  I understand.  I’m kind of a lone wolf, so I really don’t have those issues.

Dr. Shiva:  Well, that’s why Ben wanted me to speak to you.  He said you should speak to Kent, he’s a guy who is thoughtful, but my point, the main point I want to get across is that there are principles of how you get to truth freedom, and health.  Those six principles.  You can argue with me on that, I’m open to it.

But those principals are what I apply as a scientist to understand the immune system.  And those same principals are what we need to apply to fight the modern caste system.  We have a caste system in this country and it’s a few people who think they know better.  That’s what Elizabeth Warren is about.  I know better than you, and she thinks she can lie, and it’s okay for her.

Kent:  And I’m going to use the power of the state to enforce my lies.

Dr. Shiva:  Exactly, I’m going to use the power of the state to control your health decisions because you’re stupid.  I’m going to use the power of the state to control the distribution of information.  I’m going to use the power of me to say AMC Theaters is so important to me that Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai needs to pull down that video.  You see?  It’s not different.

Kent:  Okay.

Dr. Shiva:  That’s what people need to understand.  You can never apply those principles.  If you believe in any type of spiritualism, right, from a principled standpoint, once you go down that route, it’s game, set. match.   You’re dead on arrival.  And I firmly believe that in my gut of my gut, we’ve got to educate people.  We have to disperse knowledge.  We have to teach people how to think from a systems perspective. And fortunately, or unfortunately, I happen to be in an interesting position where I did go to these places and I understand how the enemy works.  I’ve educated as many people as possible.  That’s the only way to win.  Not only on the vaccine issue, but on every f****** issue.

The vaccine issue and the reason I hammer so hard on these people, and it’s not them.  It’s more an opportunity to show how movements are being misled.  We never win by following the principles of the enemy.  That is destined for failure.

Kent:  The vaccine issue has opened my eyes to the misuse of power, but it’s also opened my eyes to misuse of power in multiple areas of our lives.

Dr. Shiva:  You nailed it, man.  That’s why I’m saying it’s a movement for truth, freedom, and health.  I teach a course, we train like ten thousand people at my center, practitioners, and it was always about, become a systems revolutionary.  That’s the goal.  And you know what’s really screwed up if you look at all these social media platforms?  They call everybody followers.  That’s part of this whole culture.  You follow, you follow.  You follow.

Kent:  (Laughs.)

Dr. Shiva:  I want to train a hundred thousand leaders.  I want to be able to go back and do my science because I don’t have the time and people are feeling this.  What’s happening, Kent, is that there’s such a dearth of information, so anytime someone gives them a little bit, like the VAXXED team movie, people go hang onto it.  You see what I’m saying?  It’s like the old, we know that pharmaceutical drugs aren’t working, so some guy produces some pill, and maybe throws a lot of garbage, but a little turmeric, there’s such an appetite for knowledge and truth, that it’s so easy to manipulate people now.

I hope you understand where I’m coming from.  It’s about liberation, because every generation that we don’t expose the not-so-obvious establishment, or we’re not critical of those people who claim they want to help the world, another cycle goes, and liberation or freedom, it goes another 70 years.

Kent:  The reason I really wanted to talk to you Dr. Shiva is because you have a great intellect, you have a great insight, and my worry is that you might be misconstrued by some people, and that’s why I wanted to give you this forum to have a full discussion.  Basically, I’m just going to transcribe our discussion and let people decide for themselves.

Dr. Shiva:  The discussion here is do we want truth, freedom, and health, or do we want power, profit, and control, on any aspect of our lives?  And there are six principles that I have discovered that control power, profit, and control, and how they maintain it, and there are six principles of how you break free from it.  That’s how you break free from it.

Kent:  That’s a wonderful message.

Dr. Shiva:  And  you have to be uncompromising, because the enemy is so strong, Kent.  You can never underestimate these people.  They’re so fucking powerful, man.  They think ten steps ahead.  So we have to think twenty steps ahead.  It’s not like we have to think one step ahead.  We have to think twenty.

And part of that is we have to have ethical principals of conduct.  You can’t use a Hollywood approach, to defeat the not-so-obvious Hollywood establishment.  It hasn’t worked.  That’s my point.  I don’t have any allegiance to sacred cows.  The only people I have allegiance to is those people I saw growing up, my working class friends in New Jersey, and these mothers.  They deserve to lead.  They deserve not to feel f******* f****** coming out of a movie.

They need tools, they need arms, they need weapons to fight.  I’m going to give them those weapons so t’s not about me.  But I will put myself out there as much as I need to to put this message out there.

Kent:  It’s commendable, and that’s why when I heard you on Scott Adams, I said to myself, “Holy shit!  This is a guy who is finally educating people and Scott Adams, who I consider one of the best thinkers of our time.”

Dr. Shiva:  Yeah, Scott’s a good guy, but he didn’t understand.  But Scott is smart enough to know to give a guy like me a forum, because he says “Shit!  This guy gets it!”  And you get it.  If we had a hundred of people like us, who get it about the not-so-obvious establishment, this world would change.  We don’t need a lot.  But we need people educating others.  You go educate a thousand people.  Those thousand go educate people on these principals.  The things I just laid, out, what I hope your article will share, is these principals that Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai shared.

You should go on my Twitter feed.  I don’t know if you’re on Twitter.

Kent:  I am on Twitter.  Barely.

Dr. Shiva:  Go look at two things I did, before you write this, because it will give you a sense of where I’m coming from.  You have the pinned Tweet on it, a systems drawing exposing to parents how the student loan scam works.  There’s another thing exposing the nine elements of every system.  Then I did one with my friend, Tiffany, exposing the VAXXED movie, not the VAXXED movie, but the lessons we can learn.

Kent:  I’m a teacher, so I’m all about lessons.

Dr. Shiva:  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you’ll like this, Kent.  If you go down, there’s the AMC theater talk that I actually gave, that they wanted me to pull down.  Then, you’ll see that real change will never come from the operating system of power, profit, and control.  That has a blackboard session, and if you click on that.

Are you there?

Kent:  My wife is just telling me I need to get to school.

Dr. Shiva:  The real operating system one.  If you go about seven minutes into that, you click and hold, you’ll see some blackboard diagrams, which summarize some of what I’ve just shared with you.

Kent:  Okay, perfect.

Dr. Shiva:  But I think since you’re a teacher, Kent, you have, and once you do, and we’ll retweet the hell out of it.  This is not about me against the VAXXED people.

Kent:  And that’s why I wanted to depersonalize it, and get to principles, and how we move forward.

Dr. Shiva:  Yeah.  Dr. Shiva, he has these principals for truth, freedom, and health.  And we cannot follow the principals of power, profit, and control, because we’ll lose.  And my decision not to pull down those censored videos, was because those mothers intuitively knew it, and my intention was to arm them with the why.  I’m not even saying you need to believe in these principles.  people, even common sensically, they don’t even need to get this.  But this was to arm people.

Kent:  Okay, Dr. Shiva, I need to go teach my students.

Dr. Shiva:  And Kent, if you want me to review it and give you any feedback, because I think you have an opportunity to get something good out there.

Kent:  Me, too.  Thank you so much, Dr. Shiva.

Dr. Shiva:  You’re welcome.  Bye-bye.

Be sure to pre-order Kent Heckenlively’s new book with Dr. Judy Mikovits, PLAGUE OF CORRUPTION from Amazon which you can do RIGHT NOW!
The book is coming out on March 3, 2020 and contains explosive new revelations about the corruption of our scientific bodies, as well as new directions to ensure we become the healthiest generation in history!



plagueheckiKent’s book PLAGUE was released by Skyhorse Publishing, in 2014 and is now available in paperback with NEW material.

The book is co-authored with Judy Mikovits PhD. It is an indictment of the “Fake Science” we find so prevalent in the US.



20 thoughts on “Dr. Shiva, Scott Adams, and “VAXXED II…””

  1. The article above is THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL ARTICLE WE, here at the BolenReport, have produced in a very long time. Of course FaceBook is blocking me from Posting it to my Groups. Please help circulate this any way you can.

    Usually FaceBook turns off the “Share” button on FaceBook, BUT you can still share the article wherever you want by using the “Share” box at the bottom left of the article itself on the BolenReport page.

    Read the article to see why it is so controversial. For one thing we are allowing the criticism of the “anti-vax” movement itself – something we have done before, and something it is time to do again.

    There are people in our movement who question whether or not we are being manipulated from inside. I ALWAYS answer “yes, we are…” Can we stop it? Yup – we KEEP stopping it.

  2. Dumbfounded about this man.
    Don’t know what to think !
    Will get others to read this interview.

    The Bolen Report is getting interesting.
    Very impressed with the last 2 articles.

    For me Laura Hayes is the outstanding leader on our side who is not being given the platform she deserves.

  3. Kent, your ‘hero’ is a fraud. Look at his own tactics. First he says the movement is failing because they don’t have a ‘science’, then paras later he denounces Seneff as acting like a ‘scientist’ when now he demands she act like an ‘engineer’… Fighter yes, always bashing and bragging.

    Let him deal with the POLIO FACT that Dr Fredrick R Klenner had CURED 40 OUT OF 40 CASES OF POLIO [including one where paralysis had already set in] but I’m sure he’d demand that didn’t explain anything, and then tell us about his grandmother’s tatooed arms.

    He wants to shut down attempts to deal with political attempts to force vaxxing on the people as ‘back room dealing’ and demands we just ‘EDUCATE. EDUCATE. EDUCATE’… Educating is not LEARNING, it is indoctrinating, an opposite of ‘freedom’ in his ranting.

    …and on and on.. only he is right in his opinion, not those who supply the pieces of the puzzle that he presumes to assemble. HE’S A LIMITED HANGOUT BY THE PHARMACEUTICAL DRUG LORDS.. admitting ‘some’ harming, but demanding following the ‘new engineering’….. DISGUSTED.

  4. MJ:

    Interviewing controversial figures and letting them speak is NOT an endorsement. It’s called journalism. I present the information, warts and all, and let YOU, the reader decide. Aren’t you tired of writers TELLING you what to think? I believe my readers are smart enough to make their own decisions.

    Kent Heckenlively

  5. What a wonderful interview. I’m going to take what Dr. Shiva said and share within the community I advocate for. We have hit a brick wall and I’m hoping this can help give us the tools to understand the other side, fight and win.
    Thank you Kent!

  6. Kent, as a matter of fact. i was not ‘objecting’ to your presenting him in full color. and was precisely telling WHAT I SEE in his FLIM-FLAMMING..

    Acting like he’s invented this holy medical grail, WHEN FUNCTIONAL MEDICINE and NATUROPATHY have long done the looking at the puzzle whole to see how the pieces fit in the individual patient case.. He’s nothing new is spite of his bragging

    Calling it ‘system engineering’ is a ploy FOR THE PHARMACEUTICAL DRUGLORDS [for whom he admits he is employed] to save their skin from retribution for what they did, CRIMINALLY as RFK,Jr has repeatedly shown… And claiming it was ‘just’ their emphasis on ‘effectiveness’, at which BTW they also fail, though he NEGLECTS to admit THAT. Dr Suzanne Humphries showed the flu vax made you MORE SUSCEPTIBLE THE FOLLOWING YEAR. And there are other similar ‘effectiveness’ glitches so they were not so cleverly focused for 30 years, and ‘just’ oblivious to harm. [because they were immune, as you will recall]

    Since he admits that the diseases were heavily influenced by such things as sanitation and deficiencies then HE MUST KNOW THAT THOSE CORRECTIONS ARE THE REASON THE EPIDEMICS WERE SOLVED — NOT VACCINES., which he carefully avoids looking at, while claiming he’s familiar with OUR SIDE…..

    And conveniently, he doesn’t support the mothers approaching politicians with their demands to stop this or that bill, yet thinks he should hold the reigns of power to write our laws… oh those pesky women of NVIC

    No, clearly he’s a limited hangout…. so it’s very useful that you let him talk at length and dominate his presentation. By all means, we should examine these threats.. Clear enough? Your own claim to being a ‘fanboy’ was the reason for the reference to ‘hero’, which he clearly is not mine. His stories of a childhood of oppression being ‘untouchable’ is such a handy diversion when confronted with a clear challenge that exposes the criminality and he’s adept at the game, now dually popular-shielding on both sides of the political aisle… Disappointed he’s so expert at flimflamming….. TTYL

  7. MJ:

    Thanks for the clarification.

    And yes, I am a “fanboy” for really smart people, like Dr. Shiva and Scott Adams. I listen to what they say, then make up my own mind. Smart doesn’t necessarily mean right. It simply means, consider. I will not prejudice the conversation, either way, just enjoying that it is something that is making people think.

    Kent Heckenlively

  8. I know that Shiva is right about a lack of a coordinated effort to fight the issue, due to a lack of understanding of the entire problem,

    We see it time after time where a valiant effort is made and we fall just short of achievement. I do not find this to be a coincidence.

  9. KENT:

    Thank you for this fabulous article and the thoughtful interview you did with Dr. Shiva. His work is a game changer in the world of REAL health care reform. I urge readers send a copy of this article, printed or e-mailed, to every opinion molder they know – elected officials, medical experts, news outlets and so forth.

    I hope everyone sends a copy to President Trump at the White House. He is an original thinker and much of what he has directed his people to do is to think outside of the box. One of his key targets is Big Pharma. He and his people will “get” what Dr. Shiva is talking about.

    While it challenges everything we think we know about the science of vaccines et al, what is also does is tell us our political strategies need a major re-do for us to become more effective.

    When I first read Dr. Shiva’s work, I knew that how I do my work had changed forever.


  10. Tim: He is so right about education. This must be a bottom-up effort. People in the streets. Getting in their faces.

  11. Most entertaining I think is the right assessment.

    He is, of course, totally right and totally wrong – as he says himself. If you’re going to have any chance of understanding any system you need to know both that which sustains it and that which destroys it. Any systems needs both or it will have no ability to change, to adapt. This is the essence of the oriental yin/yang – of finding the balance which keeps the system in healthy function whilst giving it challenges to encourage it to grow spiritually. He calls it system engineering. OK as long as I can grasp what he means. It has many other names but that is not the point; the point is, “can we understand each other?” By and large, yes which means we’re both participating in the same system.

    His greatest problem is being a crusader. A crusader is not a peacemaker. He divides to conquer but all that he can conquer is his own darkness and, when he has done that, he has made it his own. That’s why a crusader can never be satisfied – always has to go on to conquer new territories. This is what he is doing but you can’t give all of the necessary knowledge is a few hours. This is why it took him so many years to get his doctorates. The Merlin training takes much longer and is a minimum of 33 years (yes, thirty three!) Well, Targatel did it a couple of years quicker but there aren’t many of them around. It took me somewhat longer than 33 and, just like everyone else, I’m still learning.

    Education is the key but only works when people want to listen and mostly they don’t. That’s the problem that he needs to look at; how to awaken the sleeping. Don’t preach at them, they just go into deeper sleep; how can you make it so interesting for THAT INDIVIDUAL that he/she wants to wake up and listen?

    Blessed be

    Karma Singh

  12. Well Dr. Shiva just irritated the “heck” out of me. No one but him knows how to proceed, Del Bigtree is establishment and Polly Tommey is a censor. Let’s back it up Mr “Systems” MIT e-mail inventor. Crowing about credentials seems a bit too “establishment” to my way of thinking. He just admitted most healers in India were women, but by golly we better learn his six principles (which btw, he apparently forgot). While he wants to “educate” me so I can talk to Harvard professors he’s missing the point. I no longer think about talking to Harvard professors. I want to know that some “social worker” isn’t going to knock on my door because my child was short of lunch money and have CPS wanting to investigate me for skipping a “required” injection. I am ready for justice and protection. The education is complete.

  13. Alexis: I, too was offended by his belittlement of good people; nevertheless, he is an ally in this battle against crimes against humanity, the only appropriate label for the domestic military operation called “the vaccine schedule.” It is a military operation, run out of the Pentagon. In some ways he sounds arrogant, but he explained to Scott Adams very clearly that no proper safety studies have ever been done for individual vaccines, combinations, or the whole schedule. Scott didn’t seem to really get it, but this was new information for him, which is good.

  14. I am very much happy with this article and what it explains. Why? Because only just a few years ago the so-called “Anti-vax” movement was in a place where their argument was “we know that vaccines are safe and effective (sniff, sniff), but we just want personal choice (whimper, whimper).

    Now look where the “Anti-Vax” movement is…

    We are so powerful Big Pharma is having special board meetings about us…

    And we are just beginning..

  15. In the interview Dr, Shiva was able to make the arguments that “Vaxxed II” was unscientific and depressing, and that Dell Bigtree is a wannabe Hollywood mogul. I think that observation is scientific, that tragedy can be worthwhile, that Dell Bigtree is a fine director, and that the game-changing potential of “Vaxxed II” is greater than that of Dr. Shiva.

  16. Wow.. I will ad that I didn’t like the put down of Robert kennedy because he grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth. So what? There were so many put down comments that I was uncomfortable, including Del wanting to be a hollywood star. What better “education” than mothers and fathers telling their story first hand. And Dr Andrew Wakefield, telling his story first hand. Vaxxed was excellent work.

  17. I expected, after watching one video of Dr. Shiva last month, that he was going to be a great addition to our movement. He’s clearly well educated and intelligent. My mental health training radar went up after he went over the whole “I invented email and I’ve been slighted” issue but, I can understand wanting to defend himself if, indeed, he had been robbed of the credit for his product. Then, the next major exposure was the RFK Jr post. The hair on the back of my neck stood up but I was determined to keep an open mind. (Full disclosure, I’ve met Polly Tommey and my name is #31 on the Vaxxed bus.) The Howie Carr interview was my next piece of research and I also watched Shiva’s rebuttal video to RFK jr. I then read what appeared to be a fair account of the email controversy. What I come away with is that he is undoubtedly bright. He has a good amount of information and can speak intelligently on the vaccine issue. What is less clear is his motivation. I am deeply troubled by what comes across to me as paranoia and combativeness. He reeks of a personality that is not willing to cooperate with or support others. “Messiah complex” comes to mind. He may well have a right to be confident in his knowledge of the subject matter and perhaps even his approach. But folks, speaking as kindly as I can, this is either a very troubled individual (i.e. multiple references to his lower caste status in India & Kennedy’s upper class family plus equating the kind request from Bella to take down his unauthorized video as censorship) or he has simply been dispatched to sew seeds of division. What he says in this interview sounds like someone in a manic episode who is off their meds. There may be bits of brilliance but I felt like I got vomited on by a dictionary. A bright, busy brain, going at 90 mph, in not one or two but 14 different directions w/o a coherent plan & dragging me along while suggesting I’m a fool if I don’t see it as he does or if I don’t submit to his leadership on it is not only disquieting it is scary.

  18. I want so much to like this guy, to trust him, to believe that he will do well for Maskatwoshits but I cannot get past the red flags that are waving furiously when he speaks. We desperately need someone (actually many) people of high morality and a firm grounding in our founding documents and law & order in the public servant positions in this state. I don’t see it in him. Many are supporting him in his run for office here but I don’t think it will end well.

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